JOHN GROVES, AT HIS HOME IN BEAMINSTER, TALKING TO MURRAY ROSE ON 22ND SEPTEMBER, 2022.
MR. GROVES WAS BORN IN 1941 IN HOOKE
TRANSCRIBED BY SALLY WAKEFIELD 24TH OCTOBER, 2022
MR – Murray Rose
JG – John Groves
MR This is Murray Rose interviewing John Groves about the Strode Room and also I think the (? speech unclear) and its all part of the Beaminster Oral History Project. The date is the 22nd September, 2002 (Wrong date! Should be 2022) and John’s starting by reading something he’s written on the history of the Strode Room. You fill in from there………
JG Right OK. Sir John Strode’s Almshouses or God’s Houses. In 1966 Mr Bob Travers, the Town Clerk to the Beaminster Rural District Council got the Trustees of eight small charities, with the agreement of the Charities Commission, to form the Beaminster Charities – Poor Charity, to be later called Relief in Need.
The new charity commenced on the 5th July 1967. Sir John Strode Almshouses was one of the eight charities. Two tenanted almshouses, the tenants were a Mrs. B. Hillier and a Mr. F. White who paid a weekly rent of 7s. 6d. or our equivalent of 37p a week.
Mr. White gave up the tenancy on the 4th October 1971 due to ill health. Mrs. Hillier gave up her tenancy on the 22nd November, 1971 due to ill health and loneliness.
My memories of the properties were dark, depressing and needed modernisation. In 1972 the Trustees asked the National Association of Almshouses to inspect the almshouses to draw up a scheme with a view to improving them. Also to seek Planning Permission. In 1973 the church was interested in purchasing the building with a view to turning it into a parish room and in August 1973 the Trustees could not carry out the alterations as the scheme was not viable. The Trustees asked the Charity Commission to give permission for the almshouses to be used as a parish room and not to be sold as a holiday cottage. In 1973, November, the Chairman of the Church Parochial Council, the Rev. Douglas Galloway, and the Clerk, met the Charity Commission. The Commission agreed to sell the almshouses to the church. The Charity Commission…………… I believe that the church wanted the Charity, us, to give the building to them at a knock down price because the alterations to the building were astronomic and it soon proved that the rents would never cover even the interest charges on a loan to do the alterations without even paying any of the capital back.
The Charity Commission in 1974 told the almshouses to go away and get a valuation, and told the church to go away and get a valuation. The Beaminster Charities valuer valued it at £7000 and the church valuer valued it at £4750. The two valuations were sent to the Charity Commission, the Trustees being in favour that the property should be sold to the church and they were very keen that the church should have it but the Charity Commission wouldn’t waiver, no way they wouldn’t. That was in 1974. In 1975 it was agreed that a figure of £5000 for the almshouses – the Charity Commission agreed to sell at £5500 to the church but the church had to raise the funds and I believe they tried to set up an appeal committee to raise it but to no…………… I don’t think they ever……………. it just faded away and this never became……………… So then, until we sold it in 1977 which was for about, during the course of 1975 to August 1976 there was discussions on how and who would buy the almshouses. Of course the almshouses were deteriorating because it was in 1971 that they were empty. The Trustees didn’t want them to go on the open market to become a holiday cottage so it was stalemate. The Charity Commission at this time were being rather obstructive. They were not being very helpful because they didn’t want the asset to go presumably but, at long last, to save our bacon, the Strode Room Appeal came along and made us an offer at long last in August ’76 of £4500 which, after much hard work with the Charity Commission explaining how we didn’t have a proper access to the place only except by very steep steps, the deterioration of the place, that the place…………… we were afraid would be vandalised or squatters, and in June they agreed to sell and we sold it to the Strode Room Appeal for £4500. End of the story as far as we were concerned.
[00:07:06]
MR Where did the Strode Room Committee come…………….. the Strode Room Appeal, was that the church?
JG No, that was the people that run it now. I think the………. one of the leading lights was a chap called Mr. Buckingham. He used to live up………………..
MR He was the leading light?
JG Yes.
MR And he independently created an appeal? It wasn’t the church’s appeal, it was his appeal?
JG His appeal but the church………….. a few years before, Douglas Galloway who was then……… saw what a lot of people saw happening he saw the benefit of the church having a small hall, with toilets, right next to it and he really wanted to buy it but he couldn’t get the funding.
MR So that’s how the Buckinghams got it. And then they, from the appeal, they………………….
JG Well that was outside my scope………….
MR I’ve got the story from there on, got all the files. From Buckingham’s files. But that’s very new and very interesting to me. I hadn’t realised it was such a long period and so much discussion and that the church was so interested.
JG The church, Douglas Galloway was one of the Trustees. I think he was Chairman of the Trustees of Beaminster Charities because it became Beaminster Charities. In 1976 the John Strode’s Almshouses didn’t really, not really existed, they were just in the Beaminster Poor Charity and came under our management.
MR Stiby comes into it doesn’t he?
JG Oh they were all Trustees. I mean we had, there would be…………. there was Miss Small I think, there was Mr. Stiby, oh there were all characters, Mrs. Bailey, all Beaminster people and it was rather annoying at the time, which I haven’t gone into very much, haven’t gone into there, but during the course of this time we were, we really struggled because we had a property that was deteriorating and it really needed modernisation. I mean it was shocking that people were living in it really. And we couldn’t do anything about it. There were people……….. all the Trustees were Beaminster people who wanted the property to stay in Beaminster and would have given the property to the church if they’d had their own way but the Charity Commission wouldn’t release it. Like I said in there, Douglas Galloway and myself went to London to meet the Charity Commission to try to get them to see sense but in the meantime, during this period, it had got quite, I wouldn’t say nasty……………………..
MR Antagonistic?
JG Yes, everyone had been very good, of people that had moved in – and the people are dead now so – but I’m not going to mention their names, there were several that wrote to the Secretary of State saying that we shouldn’t sell it, wrote to the Charity Commission saying that we weren’t doing our job properly. But nobody came up with a suggestion of how do we finance alterations, to a property that’s deteriorated so badly, from two rents. We couldn’t expect the other charities to subsidise that building. It was just not economic. The day we sold it was ………..
MR There was some antagonism I think because it’s there today actually. I know people that wont let the church touch it because the church was not helpful. The church didn’t want to bother but, from your story, it was everybody trying hard and there was just not the money there.
JG I’ve got it in the (unclear) there that…………….. I spent a lot of time with Douglas Galloway (unclear) and he really did see………….. he saw the benefits that would have for Beaminster Church. A small room with toilets. Because I remember him saying he could never understand, in all those years when they used to have long sermons, how people, what they did to go to the toilet for older people. And he saw all this and he really wanted………………. but they………………….. (very unclear section of speech)
MR Where does Tim Biles come into this? Did he follow Galloway?
JG He might have followed him.
MR But he was after this time?
JG Oh yes, Tim came in, he might have been there near the end but it was too late then, it had all gone through. They realised they couldn’t do any more about it. The church, under the scheme of the Beaminster Charities, the vicar of St. Mary’s Church automatically becomes a Trustee. So whoever takes over, like Rev. David Baldwin is now a Trustee. But it was…………….. there was quite a bit of heartache…………………
MR There was a lot of criticism……………….
JG And the Trustees got……………. and the Clerk got it as bad as any of the Trustees because people were complaining about nothing being done and we had our hands tied.
MR So you were stuck there. So were you Clerk?
JG I’ve been Clerk since 1967. Nobody else……………………. I worked for Kitson & Trotman and Bill Stiby was when he was first Trustee and Bob Travers, Mrs. Travers’ (unclear), and Bob was there and they had their first meeting and Bill Stiby (interruption by phone) sort of said to me ‘John we would look on it as a favour if you would take it on as Clerk to the Beaminster Charities.’ Well, in 1966 you did what your bosses told you virtually and so I took it on and I never………… only had a meeting last night but I’m trying to release it really. I’m still the Clerk.
MR I realised how close you were to the Strode Room when I looked at the Conveyance. We spent a long time trying to find the Conveyance. We’ve actually found a copy with the Charity Commission but nobody else round here has…………….. but your name, you are the Witness to every one of the 12 Trustees on that document.
JG It would have been done at a meeting. Bob, again, was ……………….. could see into the future because there was these small charities which……………. one charity had fifteen bob (15s.) or 75p income which was supposed to supply bread for the poor. Well……………..
MR So that’s where the Beaminster Charity idea came in?
JG That’s where it came……………. we had all those 8 came in and were amalgamated and called Beaminster Charities Poor Charity which is now known as Relief in Need. And then there was a separate one which is Beaminster Charities Child Welfare and that was………….. we had, where the gents’ hairdressers in Hogshill Street is used to be the Clinic and we owned that property, or they did, and then it was passed to the Child Welfare Charity. It owned that building, I don’t know how they owned it but they did, and it came to us and they held a baby clinic, etc. downstairs and then upstairs they had a flat where they used to have a nurse, and Dorset County Council used to pay a rent on that. And then when things went on the clinic wasn’t used, there was no need, of course the National Health Service, the surgeries took over, but they still used to use it for the nurse which was a very cheap rent. Anyway, the council gave it up, we sold it and then invested the money. We sold all our assets off as and when they became……. and put it on……………………. (lots of unclear speech) and put it on the stock market (unclear) because well we didn’t know that property was going to fly through the roof. We sold off that, I don’t remember what we got but we got quite a good price for it.
Then the Trustees owned a garden – a strip of land up at Furlands which is up in East Street which was used for when the Beaminster Boys School was in East Street they used to have it as their school gardens. And that became vacant (unclear) so we sold that. And the Valuer said that we ought to go to public auction because of the rent of an acre of land, and there was a load………………….. the pony people would fight over and they did. This land made, oh I don’t know, £12000 or £13000 when we sold it. Stupid price for a piece, a plot, of land but there was two people who had ponies wanted it……………..
MR It’s not the allotments now is it?
JG It’s opposite the allotments. When you go up that lane there’s the allotments then there’s an entrance to somebody (? name) then there’s this field. I think the shed’s still there, an old sort of stone shed and then there’s a strip of land down the back but it used to back on to the ……………………. East Street …………….. the school’s on the Street, then there was a playground back up, then there was the Headmaster’s house and then this garden, the school gardens, were behind that which belonged to the Charity which eventually we sold it off.
[00:19:57]
MR OK. Right that’s……….
JG I’m sorry if I’m boring you.
MR No, no, no. Not at all. I wanted to know a lot about Beaminster Charities and now you are telling me. I only see it from the other side. When the museum first started it hadn’t got any money at all and we were trying to get money from…………… I’m sure we were successful. Things like school transport for the children. I think we got a grant for that. That’s right, I remember.
JG The charities that we have now, we were quite restricted in what we could do. That has been blown apart now because you can virtually do ………………. if you can prove need and affecting and that, you can do anything virtually. You can pay for people to go on holidays, you can do ……………. but, white goods for people – we’ve – last night we paid a £1000 grant to a young lady who’s gone to Bristol to help with her accommodation. And we also agreed to buy a laptop, printer and a program for another young lady who wants it for………………. she’s a single parent family, wants some further education and she’s starting a course next Monday to do with advancing herself to help with children and all this sort of stuff and to get a better degree for a better job. But she didn’t have a computer.
MR That’s very good isn’t it. Not many people know about it do they?
JG We haven’t recently I must admit, but originally, this is why we had to change the name, Poor Charity, that used to rankle, right? You can remember, if you think back in the ’60s, you mention Poor Charities and that used to ……………… So we changed to Relief in Need. What the difference is I don’t know but it did help. We also do, last year how many, Christmas Hampers. We get a list of Christmas Hampers for single families or families. We provide hampers, I don’t know if they’re £50 – at Christmas – a £50 hamper which the Hogshill Stores now do and we do, that’s for the family hamper, and then we do a £40 hamper for the old people. And that is done by the knowledge of the local…………………… because all the Trustees are local. The family ones we get from the Health Visitors because they know because they’re going into people’s houses and around and they give us a list of who they feel they could deal with.
MR So you don’t really need to be well known because the connections are there.
JG We’ve tried over the years with the doctors, etc. We have tried every so often, we’re there, but they all come across and say well the National Health does it all now sort of thing so……………………
MR OK. I think that covers the Strode Room and the charities bit. But in general, your recollections of Beaminster? You, as you’ve been around for a long time, how do you think he place has changed?
JG Not for the better.
MR Not for the better. OK that’s good (laughter), good that there’s an opinion and in what way has it got worse?
JG Development.
MR You don’t like development?
JG I do like development in moderation. I just feel Beaminster’s lost it’s character because we’ve got, we’re starting to get bigger and bigger and I just find that the personal (this is my thing) the personal touch of going round Beaminster say back in the ’60s, ’70s, that you could walk round Beaminster – I know it’s never going to happen again – but you knew people, they spoke to you. You had some sort of thing. Now it’s so much different. I find that going to funerals is the only way that I see old Beaminster.
MR I’m with you all the way actually because ten years ago I would walk out in the street and knew everybody but now I know very few people compared to beforehand. And that is because of the age group I think. When you start actually looking at your age group you find there aren’t many of you left. Whether or not it’s suddenly got too many newcomers or whether we don’t know the newcomers is the real question.
[00:25:51]
JG I think it’s got disproportionate myself. We’re building all these flaming houses around but I just wonder where it’s stopping because we were told many years ago that development couldn’t go ahead much more because the sewerage couldn’t take it. I mean, you’ve got now, we’ve got virtually no employment in the town. We let Pneumatic go – or the West Dorset District Council let Pneumatic go – we’ve got no employment for people here.
MR It’s all travelling………………
JG That’s right and you know we’ve got …………………… the shops we’ve got are excellent but the surgeries I mean how much longer have we got them covered, the doctor’s surgeries, we’re not keeping up with all the things you need for a place, we’re not keeping up with the numbers we’re bringing in. I’m past it anyway, it doesn’t matter does it (laughter) I realise I’m one of the old codgers you’ve got to forget really.
MR All sorts of things seem to have gone down the drain but ……………… for instance 50 years ago you could buy a pair of shoes here, you could buy almost anything here couldn’t you? And now, that’s out of the question.
JG Oh yes I mean we’ve got very few………………. Where Symonds & Sampson is you had a gent’s outfitters (name is unclear) then you had, in the Square where, that big shop there was Owen’s, you had a ladies’ dress shop there and a man’s next door.
MR That fabulous hardware shop, what was that?
JG Coulsons.
MR Coulsons, I’ve never seen a shop like that.
JG That was unbelievable that was. We had a lot more pubs than we got now and that can’t be a bad thing. (Laughter) You could…………… Down where Wakely’s are now, their Rest Room, there was a chap called Roy Head who used to repair shoes.
MR A cobbler? Oh crikey!
JG The shop’s still there. There’s a little…………… it’s all part of A.J. Wakely’s now but a – called Roland Washington Head and you used to, take your shoes down and he’d repair them. Where the flower shop is that used to be a shoe shop then where the paint shop – oh what do they call themselves – Larcombes – next door that used to be Chard’s the shoe shop.
MR Another shoe shop? Two shoe shops? Fantastic. There aren’t two shoe shops in Bridport now!
JG No that’s right. That was quite a big………… that was run by a Mr. Bryce.
MR This is 1950’s you’re talking about?
JG Yes, 1950’s, ’60s. When did I get married? ’60s. Oh yes. And we had a butcher’s shop.
MR Lots of butcher’s shops?
JG Yes, there was Hine’s(?) butcher’s shop, there was a butcher’s shop. Dan Trojan down at North Street, there was another butcher’s shop here, Buglers up the road. Buglers down the road here? Where the dentist is now was a ……………………… and that was a shoe shop for a time……………………..
MR And that was Tess of the d’Urbervilles…………………………..
JG Bugler, yes, Gertie Bugler.
MR Yes, and she lived there?
JG I don’t know if she……………I don’t ever remember – it was before my time I think. Her relations, Toms, live up over there. I wouldn’t like to say. My memory, I’m not sure if she did or not. I know she was about here but……….
MR Gertrude Bugler and Diana Toms, was that the daughter?
JG Yes something like that, relations I know.
[00:30:50]
MR Gertrude Bugler lived up with the (? unclear) for a while didn’t she?
JG Yes, and that would be her daughter. Because she’s just died now.
MR What about transport? Is there any difference in the transport now from …………………
JG We used to have buses (Laughter)
MR Used to have buses. We still have buses. You didn’t need so many buses because you had all the stuff here!
JG Well that’s absolutely right. And people didn’t travel. They didn’t travel. We had our own bus company here anyway (L.H. ? name unclear) A chap called Gerald Hillier and his dear old bus. There’s a story about him. He used to take us on to football matches when we were playing out at the other end of Dorset for a cup match and we’d hire his bus and going back up over Whitcombe Road up over the hill there. Of course synchromesh not very good on these gears. Funny enough he’s just died. A chap in the back said ‘he’s the only driver I know who could play the Swedish Rhapsody on a gearbox’. And it’s always stuck with me. Course we had a petrol station here. We had one up at Tunnel Road, one at Buglers here and then one at Prout Bridge. The one down at Prout Bridge and the one up there both belonged to Bridle’s when I was about, Frank Bridle, and this one belonged to Buglers. And they used to sell cars. Buglers had a showroom, there was always mainly Ford………………….
MR Secondhand cars?
JG No, they always had a new one around in the showrooms there. He didn’t really want, I don’t think……… They would deal with cars if you wanted them to but they were more into the agricultural side. But they used to sell cars.
I bought a secondhand car, actually my first car I bought from Ralph Bugler.
MR From Ralph Bugler? (Laughter)
JG There was Francis Bugler. The name is Francis Bugler but Ralph was in charge when I …………………….
MR Yes, I met John Bugler the other day for the first time near his farm and I’d never met him before so we had a long chat.
JG He’s very much like his father. There’s Ralph’s other son, Richard is an accountant as such. He’s one of the Trustees. he took over really as a Trustee when Ralph unfortunately died. He’d been a great asset to the Beaminster Charities because of his workings with…………. he had a broker in London.
MR I wonder how that happened? I wonder how he was so clever. (unclear speech)
JG He had this broker with a firm called Charles Stanley & Co. and Ralph ……………… the money we’ve got now is really down to Ralph’s nous and his connection with this broker. And, of course, when Ralph ………………we said that Richard is in that sort of line and we’ve coopted him on as a Trustee and he’s proving to take over from his dad which is very valuable with trying to keep the cash………………….
MR I did wonder the local community actually worked so well for 400 years.
JG We’ve got, like I said, our assets are up, what have we got? Our assets are, what, between £300,000 and £400,000.
MR Right, and you’re paying out all the time. You try to keep a steady level do you?
JG Yes, the capital, that’s all got to be invested. The Charity Commissioners, they keep, more so now with things, they keep a very tight rein on what you can do and how you’ve got to…………… Well we’re looking after people, the future of the charity so you’ve got to be cautious. So we’re very lucky in that way.
MR Well, I think I’ve come to the end of my list. Thank you very much indeed.
[00:35:45]